tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post4828303294815155173..comments2009-08-21T13:42:36.656-07:00Comments on Michael Braude's Technical Blog: Re: All Programming is Web ProgrammingMichael J. Braudehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03925868482949362877mikebraude@gmail.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-64721065269286952272009-08-21T13:42:36.656-07:002009-08-21T13:42:36.656-07:00I find it bizarre that 20 years after the inventio...I find it bizarre that 20 years after the invention of Visual Basic and Access, people believe that making desktop applications is harder than making web applications. That makes no sense. It would be accurate to say that it is harder to make complicated desktop applications (Photoshop) than to make simple web applications (Twitter...before scaling) and harder to make complicated web applications (GMail) than simple desktop applications (Twitterific...sorry to keep picking on Twitter).<br /><br />Wow. What a revelation.<br /><br />IMO: The whole argument makes no sense.Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-76445674479081492212009-08-21T13:02:04.526-07:002009-08-21T13:02:04.526-07:00At the end of the day what it really comes down to...At the end of the day what it really comes down to is hackers putting together something (that might be useful for others) but can&#39;t really engineer solutions. You will always see people saying oh yea I know jQuery/CodeIgnighter/Rails/Django/etc, but to me if you can&#39;t write it yourself then you&#39;re really not a programmer. <br /><br />I&#39;m not saying you should reinvent any wheels but if you can&#39;t make your own wheel from scratch then I don&#39;t see how you can understand the wheels that are already out there. End result = you&#39;re hacking code.<br /><br />And yes Jeff Attwood is a total noob, but most people won&#39;t care cuz they are end users and don&#39;t have to work with the SO&#39;s code base. I&#39;m sure if you were hired and had to work with that code and it wasn&#39;t properly designed with tests to support it, you will be wasting time trying to figure out if a change you made breaks something.<br /><br />That said, most people don&#39;t even realize that there are differences between &quot;web applications&quot; and &quot;websites&quot;. Putting together a website, not to belittle anyone, is simple. A web app on the other hand needs solid software engineering (especially for the backend). <br /><br />The title web developer is supposed to mean you are able to author pro markup, stylesheets, and backend code, have a working knowledge about computer networking and distributed computing. Most *web developers* don&#39;t fit this so I think it is the most meaningless title to have. IMO they&#39;re all web designers that write shitty PHP code.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-82385710329876575472009-08-21T12:10:34.776-07:002009-08-21T12:10:34.776-07:00"...He may be happiest writing programs that get u...&quot;...He may be happiest writing programs that get used; but I am happiest writing elegant solutions to difficult problems with intelligent people. And that’s why, so long as the web is built on DHTML, I will never be a web-guy. <br />...&quot;<br /><br />Which basically says to me that your more interested in crafting an elegant piece of software than you are in developing a solution that is useful.<br /><br />Okay great. So you can write a mean linked list. That doesn&#39;t help your customer. <br /><br /><br /><br />&quot;...Note that by the term “web development”, I am specifically referring to the presentation layer of a webpage – not the back-end services that do all sorts of complex stuff. That’s not web-development – that’s just normal server-side development, and it encompasses all platforms and presentation layers, so it has nothing to do with the web, specifically...&quot;<br /><br /><br />This is laughable. And it also says to me that you have no clue what your ranting against. Without the back-end there is no &quot;web application&quot;. Your definition of web programming is what? HTML sprinkled with Javascript? That&#39;s simply brochureware with movement.<br /><br />-CFChronoFishhttp://blog.chronofish.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-21858151511515862762009-08-21T09:43:33.895-07:002009-08-21T09:43:33.895-07:00Michael, your classification of "web guys" is pret...Michael, your classification of &quot;web guys&quot; is pretty offensive, and when it comes right down to it, completely artificial. There are subtleties in any realm of computer engineering (layout markup included) that are ridiculously difficult.<br /><br />If that weren&#39;t the case, then perhaps you and all of your intellectual giant friends at Microsoft could have engineered &quot;elegant solutions&quot; to make a version of Internet Explorer that actually worked.<br /><br />http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer.htmlcodecowardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05172016168512368720noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-42126876708626408382009-08-21T09:03:04.205-07:002009-08-21T09:03:04.205-07:00Wow, your iTunes example was WEAK. Jeff did ackno...Wow, your iTunes example was WEAK. Jeff did acknowledge that there are some niche apps that will remain desktop apps. However... are you not aware of all the other iTunes-like WEB APPS out there? Amazon? WAL-MART?? Your argument would be a lot stronger if your basis for it was an app that had <i>no web-based competitors</i>.Davehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14933034916500244308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-42425375938520978142009-08-21T05:21:20.015-07:002009-08-21T05:21:20.015-07:00I couldn’t agree more with Anonymous @ August 18, ...I couldn’t agree more with Anonymous @ August 18, 2009 12:04 AM ! <br /><br />I am a web developer myself and I find Michael’s blog entertaining and can see what he means - but Jeff’s sweeping assumptions annoy me! His stubbornness in the pod cast is appalling!Preeti Edulhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12499871123390804009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-48761116169382462802009-08-20T05:05:10.268-07:002009-08-20T05:05:10.268-07:00iTunes is a web application - two of its key featu...iTunes <i>is</i> a web application - two of its key features are pod cast subscriptions and the iTunes store, both of which are on the web.Pete Kirkhamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17321624014729731964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-58366109152734324292009-08-20T04:08:56.097-07:002009-08-20T04:08:56.097-07:00"... if you pick two shoe makers randomly, one who...&quot;... if you pick two shoe makers randomly, one who makes cheap shoes and another making expensive shoes, the expensive shoe maker is probably the better craftsman ...&quot;<br /><br />Maybe, the expensive cobbler is just a better merchant.Nerevarinehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11127057319564103818noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-43439090018088624182009-08-19T21:31:23.173-07:002009-08-19T21:31:23.173-07:00"What you're saying is that if you making cheap sh...&quot;What you&#39;re saying is that if you making cheap shoes then it&#39;s because you&#39;re too stupid to make expensive shoes.&quot;<br /><br />No. He is saying that people who make cheap shoes are less likely to have mastered their craft. I.e., if you pick two shoe makers randomly, one who makes cheap shoes and another making expensive shoes, the expensive shoe maker is probably the better craftsman. Would you disagree?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-16905626345595009032009-08-19T18:46:39.564-07:002009-08-19T18:46:39.564-07:00You're being an elitist. What you're saying is tha...You&#39;re being an elitist. What you&#39;re saying is that if you making cheap shoes then it&#39;s because you&#39;re too stupid to make expensive shoes. This is a logical fallacy. While it&#39;s without a doubt true that web programming is easier than medical, space and gaming systems, it doesn&#39;t mean that things that are less shouldn&#39;t exist. Just because YOU have the desire(and the time?) to become some super geek who works on complex systems doesn&#39;t mean that I have, or should have, the same motivation.<br /><br />People like minesweeper, tic tac toe, blogs, and photo galleries. So there must be people to supply that demand. This could simply be people coming up in the industry or it could be someone super intelligent that&#39;s just doing it for the money<br /><br />You&#39;re the real idiot, i&#39;m afraid.Jeffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-47542730400223940212009-08-19T18:16:47.936-07:002009-08-19T18:16:47.936-07:00After reading all comments on both blogs I really ...After reading all comments on both blogs I really want to see the quality of the Stack Overflow code base! Jeff doesn&#39;t believe in unit testing so I find it hard to believe the the pillars of computer science (cohesion and coupling) are given very serious consideration.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-42419271375467658652009-08-19T13:49:22.611-07:002009-08-19T13:49:22.611-07:00Hi, That's a really nice topic for a flame war. To...Hi,<br />That&#39;s a really nice topic for a flame war.<br />To be honest, I&#39;ve never considered HTML programmers to be programmers at all. Writing in markup language and creating some simple scripts in javascript/jquery for me doesn&#39;t mean programming.<br />In the same way, unix admin that writes some scripts in bash or tcsh is not a programmer - he is still an admin, at least for me.<br />I guess, the reason that so many people were offended with your post was that they got impression that you say that web guys are dumber than desktop guys. Maybe that wasn&#39;t your intention, but after reading your post I thought that you blame web guys for all stupidity in the internet ;)<br />And I also couldn&#39;t resist to write a post about it:<br />http://codepark.blogspot.com/2009/08/nobobody-wants-to-be-that-guy.html<br /><br />Greetingsempihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05023859589448659067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-58309349683024973052009-08-19T11:07:06.803-07:002009-08-19T11:07:06.803-07:00Hi Michael, As I have already commented on Jeff's...Hi Michael,<br /><br />As I have already commented on Jeff&#39;s blog, I couldn&#39;t resist to write a follow-up post concerning this whole discussion/debacle as well.<br /><br />http://return42.blogspot.com/2009/08/web-vs-desktop-applications-neverending.html<br /><br />- TobiasTobias Svenssonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14182007029531911943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-86569665736752723642009-08-19T06:17:02.134-07:002009-08-19T06:17:02.134-07:00i really feel that, as software engineers, we have...i really feel that, as software engineers, we have to provide solutions to problems common people have.<br /><br />another thing people should know is that Mike Braude is only telling the world what he prefers, and it&#39;s quite a fair opinion to have i think.<br /><br />I work on both desktop applications and web apps and I agree on Mike&#39;s opinion that the environments the web arena provides for developers to write, test and debug the apps is not as cool as the tools we have in desktop app arena. Just using Visual Studio will tell you what I mean against debugging JavaScript using Firebug. Firebug is the best thing to have happened to a Web Developer/Designer - but again, the environment it works in isn&#39;t a &#39;disciplined&#39; one.<br /><br />Languages like C#, Java are beautiful languages, as most of the times they ENFORCE that good code be written in terms of architecture. It&#39;s easier to code shit in PHP etc than in C# or Java.<br /><br />I personally agree with Mike that the life of a software engineer working with desktop apps is much more &#39;polished&#39; and systematic should I say than web devs - but only those web devs who dont use frameworks like CodeIgniter and jQuery or YUI.<br /><br />I don&#39;t code for web because it&#39;s easy, I do it because of the public demand. People want services in their browsers - I program those services and enable them to use it. If my customers tomorrow ask me to write them a desktop app for some purpose, I would be happy to work on it too ;)Kamranhttp://www.thesocialgeek.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-17417393804017348322009-08-18T23:43:01.843-07:002009-08-18T23:43:01.843-07:00"Are we really gaining anything, or are we just sh...&quot;Are we really gaining anything, or are we just showing off how good we are at hacking a square peg into a round hole?&quot;<br /><br />The environment I work in is full of BS engineers who always want to reinvent the wheel when currently implemented and working solutions are doing the job just fine. This quote is now the official tag line of our department.<br /><br />Thanks MichaelAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-25096843383907244592009-08-18T23:39:37.603-07:002009-08-18T23:39:37.603-07:00So... you don't like the easy stuff (writing HTML)...So... you don&#39;t like the easy stuff (writing HTML), you despise the usually simple stuff (writing JS for most of the web, that is, NOT complex web2.0 apps) and you like the hard stuff (writing backend code that supports the UI) - but you call it &#39;not really web programming&#39;?<br /> <br />Seriously?<br /><br />People call PHP a toy language, but I rarely see truly innovative and well written stuff created with ASP.Net. Maybe that&#39;s your problem.Ivan Vučicahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09801850158138970240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-35367465662174018252009-08-18T16:57:17.385-07:002009-08-18T16:57:17.385-07:00One other thing from reading the comments, my job ...One other thing from reading the comments, my job title is &quot;web developer&quot; - by that my company takes it (and most recuiters that i&#39;ve spoke with) that I can code for the web across whatever languages I&#39;ve marked out. For them its the same as software developer only they&#39;ve made it clear that they want someone familar with web technologies, i.e. they code with python or php or asp.net etc. It&#39;s taken as a given that you know HTML/CSS/Javascript to a high level.<br /><br />Thats for small shops, for bigger agencies and the like they will specify more exactly in the title, so they&#39;ll go and say &quot;front end developer&quot; if they actually want someone who&#39;s just doing HTML/CSS mainly. If that&#39;s all I had to do then <i>I agree</i> I would instantly jump ship and move to desktop-app development where I&#39;d imagine I could at manouever myself into a &quot;proper&quot; coding role. <br /><br />But! If I did get a job at initech, I would be pissed if I ended up as the GUI that makes the GUI&#39;s for all the proper engineers application code because I would <i>be just the like the front end web developer</i>.<br /><br />Why on <b>earth</b> this analogy is lacking from so many peoples minds I do know now but I have seen other comments here that are thinking the same lines as me. <br /><br />I do think your re: has made a bit more of what you <i>meant</i> to say clear but please, please, please do one more (or an edit) to at least point out that you are soley (it seems) refering to <i>front end development</i> and dare I say it, many <i>web developers</i> will agree with you.<br /><br />I <b>hate</b> wasting my time trying to fix cross browser issues or having to tweak javascript &amp; css to get that must have widget working on a clients antiquted browser but I <b>love</b> scoping out, desiging and building backend systems and transforming data from just a raw pile to something useful. That for me is why I like programming <i>in anything</i>. <br /><br />Choosing HTML/CSS as my &quot;GUI&quot; gives me some flexibility and distribution ability that I just wouldnt have with a desktop app - which is probably one of the main reasons I like to get my own ideas into a web-compatible way.cdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08394001710441053489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-35107437457784151482009-08-18T16:54:30.414-07:002009-08-18T16:54:30.414-07:00I'll have to check the new Zune out; I've heard on...I&#39;ll have to check the new Zune out; I&#39;ve heard only good things about it so far. Although to be honest, my MP3 player is now integrated into my phone (iPhone) so it&#39;s very unlikely I&#39;ll buy a standalone player again. Just waiting until I can get streaming music (like Spotify) on my iPhone reliably.<br /><br />Javascript is a crappy language but it does have some pretty critical advantages over Silverlight and Flash. Namely, it works in virtually all browsers (no plugin needed). It&#39;s based on relatively open standards. And it sits on top of DHTML, which gives transparency to the content (for humans and machines alike) and often loads faster, especially on mobile devices. <br /><br />Ultimately, developers feel a lot safer developing on open vs. proprietary platforms, since big tech companies have proven over the years that they can&#39;t be trusted to act in developers&#39; best interest (yea that&#39;s a pretty sweeping statement, but I think it&#39;s also the instinct of many developers these days).<br /><br />There&#39;s also the problem you point out of &quot;just embedding one hosting environment inside of a hosting environment&quot;. This is certainly true with browser plugin platforms. As a web developer, I&#39;d rather cross my fingers that Javascript gets significantly better over time (along with other standards like HTML) than build a browser-based application that relies on a plugin. The same thing goes for technologies like AIR that try to take the experience out of the browser.<br /><br />So back to the original point about iTunes - I do actually think it could get ported into the browser as a good Javascript-based app. Anywhere.fm was actually quite decent until Imeem bought it and shut it down (for whatever reason).<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anywhere.fmMark Hendricksonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14506772696705315020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-22062642740573905542009-08-18T16:44:43.631-07:002009-08-18T16:44:43.631-07:00People still seem to be confusing web applications...People still seem to be confusing web <i>applications</i> and their backend code with front end html. Sigh...<br /><br />Anyone I know making a living coding up web based apps is exposed to patterns, OOP, concurrency problems and so on. The backend developers I&#39;m friends with generally have comp-sci or information systems eng. backgrounds. <br /><br />I compare knocking up my HTML/CSS/Javascript stuff as the same as making a GUI if I&#39;m building a desktop app, if anything the GUI building is easier although that I blame on the poor state of native widgets within the browser. <br /><br />Everything else I&#39;m coding could, for a lot of it, be just as applicable if it was dropping into a desktop app. Many of the frameworks &amp; libraries I use (like django for instance) might just as well be a .dll/.so or whatever for a desktop app.cdhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08394001710441053489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-2366376502341862452009-08-18T15:45:55.074-07:002009-08-18T15:45:55.074-07:00@Mark Hendrickson - Not to took my own horn too mu...@Mark Hendrickson - Not to took my own horn too much (or get insanely off-topic), but you should check out the Zune + Zune Pass....especially the new HD. It basically does just that, except, honest to God, the Zune software is some of the best stuff MSFT has put out in a very, very long time. <br /><br />It may be possible to put the zune software online, but I can&#39;t imagine it being done in Javascript. Silverlight or Flash would come close.<br /><br />My problem with plugin languages as a &#39;web-technology&#39; is that they&#39;re really not web-devs. We&#39;re just embedding one hosting environment inside of a hosting environment. So why bother with the browser at all?Michael J. Braudehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03925868482949362877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-11823929861720504612009-08-18T15:35:38.365-07:002009-08-18T15:35:38.365-07:00iTunes is actually the first desktop app I'd like ...iTunes is actually the first desktop app I&#39;d like to see ported to the browser. My music everywhere, easier sharing with other people, and no need to back up MP3s or migrate them to new computers.Mark Hendricksonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14506772696705315020noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-59325517859236364352009-08-18T14:51:09.688-07:002009-08-18T14:51:09.688-07:00> Braude’s Law: The easier it is to learn a given ...&gt; Braude’s Law: The easier it is to learn a given technology, the larger the percentage of bad engineers who will work with it.<br /><br />Absolutely true, and that&#39;s a major problem that many &quot;web guys&quot; have with PHP. The bar to entry is lower than certain other server-side languages, so there is more bad code out there. But that doesn&#39;t make the language itself better or worse, it just makes good coding practices that much more important.<br /><br />To avoid specific language comparisons, say it takes the average coder 5 years of full-time schooling and 5 more of practical application to become proficient in language W. It takes the average coder only 6 months to become equally proficient in language Z. As a result, W programmers tend to be fantastic programmers &quot;out of the box&quot;, while a much smaller percentage of Z programmers reach that same level of competency.<br /><br />If you have 100 coders who know W and 100 who know Z, obviously you&#39;ll get better apps from the W crowd. But because the bar to entry is so much lower for Z, the Z pool is going to be A LOT bigger, as will the amount of quality code that comes out of that pool. Smaller percentage, much bigger raw amount.<br /><br />&gt; The $64.000 question is when the power of the desktop API will be available to web development<br /><br />It already is available. As for when it will be USED, that depends when Appcelerator fleshes out the documentation for Titanium so their pool can start growing ;)<br /><br />&gt; This is reflected in the job ads: it is very rare to find someone with the title &quot;web developer&quot; also working on back-end stuff.<br /><br />Is it? Most or all of the web dev ads I&#39;ve seen list MySQL and PHP/ASP/etc in addition to the front end HTML/CSS/JS stuff. I think &quot;web designer&quot; would be more geared toward front end, but I guess usage varies wildly.<br /><br />&gt; Adobe seems to think so, as they&#39;ve replaced their low-end photo editor with (you guessed it):<br /><br />Also aviary.com seems to think you can not only put Photoshop in a browser, but Illustrator, After Effects, and a host of other programs. I don&#39;t use the site much myself, but surely if someone&#39;s going to lead that particular revolution they&#39;re miles ahead of everyone else.HBhttp://arguments.callee.info/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-10391855861375348012009-08-18T14:37:34.512-07:002009-08-18T14:37:34.512-07:00@AdamTheLawyer - Note that what they have there is...@AdamTheLawyer - Note that what they have there is written in flash - not DHTML =)Michael J. Braudehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03925868482949362877noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-80030596641788297262009-08-18T13:40:43.934-07:002009-08-18T13:40:43.934-07:00"Do we really want a web-based version of Photosho...&quot;Do we really want a web-based version of Photoshop?&quot;<br /><br />Adobe seems to think so, as they&#39;ve replaced their low-end photo editor with (you guessed it):<br /><br />http://www.photoshop.com/<br /><br />It&#39;s not everything Photoshop is by a long shot, but it ain&#39;t bad.AdamTheLawyerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10239398221725186799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5139324531203768210.post-82709510434058035712009-08-18T12:09:02.064-07:002009-08-18T12:09:02.064-07:00@Anonymous I disagree. There are many facets to we...@Anonymous I disagree. There are many facets to web development, back-end, front-end, and interface development being parts of it. Web development doesn&#39;t generally refer to anything in particular, it&#39;s usually preceded with &quot;back-end&quot; or something of the like.<br /><br />FYI, I took a peek at some job listings using the keyword web development, and every single one of the jobs I looked at involved Java, ASP.NET, or PHP.Andrewhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09548265352850245624noreply@blogger.com